CE Phoenix Cart Forum

For the longest time, it has been promoting that one can customize Phoenix with no core changes, so that updates won't overwrite the customization. May I suggest that, while this is true, it may not be the best selling feature for Phoenix. In fact, it may be more like a "solution looking for a problem".



When a shop is up and running, the store owner's focus is on running the business. So, unless there is a good reason to 'update' the shop, he won't. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is why there are people still running osC v2.2x and 2.3x. Patch it when something breaks, and get on with business.

Updating a shop is not a trivial process, and one that most store owners won't do very often. How often do most shops get a software update? I'd venture to guess ... years between updates.

And when a store is several year old (as we have already speculated that most are), the prospect of stepping up, release by release, to 'bring it up to date' is daunting. Is it not better to just install the latest version, import the old data, and re-style it?

So, since sites aren't updated frequently, the 'no core changes' framework for updating an existing site is no longer really a selling point, is it?

And, what did it take to get to the 'no core changes' framework? You have all of the additional (same but different) 'override' files. There is an entire (and growing) library of /versions/ files. All of this additional complexity to solve a problem that really doesn't exist. I thought the idea was to keep the core as lean and clean as possible.

On top of all of this, even if I put a change (styling, or adding an add-on) into an override file, who's to say that a Phoenix update won't change the underlying database structure, and the override file no longer works? Or how two different add-ons may try to install competing override files (a different problem, unrelated to the override file issue)?

So, what do I suggest?

1) First, drop the idea that 'no core changes' is important for future updates.

2) Instead, focus more on the 'secret sauce' that makes Phoenix so powerful ... Hooks!

There have been a number of recent threads in the forum that highlight the power of hooks, and rightly so. Hooks can vastly expand the versatility, functionality, and the 'look and feel' of a shop.

But, once again, the emphasis has been placed on 'no core changes'. Instead, may I suggest something much more important to your 'average' shop owner ... "No programming necessary"!

A shop owner doesn't have to know programming (or hire a programmer). Simply upload the hooked files, configure in Admin (if needed), and they are done! No need to touch a single line of code.

Speaking of which, once we drop the idea that 'no core changes' is important for future update, we can change the idea to: 'no core changes IF YOU DON'T WANT TO'. If a shop owner IS comfortable with 'minor' file editing, let them. Don't hammer the idea that they HAVE to deal with override files when a simple one or two line edit to a 'core file' is faster and easier. It won't be overwritten by an update that's not going to happen for several years.

(yes, I know. Open source, the shop owner can do what they want, yadda yadda yadda)

Anyway ... just another perspective ...

What does everyone else think?

In a way I think you are right. I can only base this on what I did several years ago.

I based the site on 1.0.8.something and rebuilt using that from a previous version of what ever the old was called at the time in the community at oscommerce. I have lots of code created and if the truth be know it cost thousands, with some of the required addons already written. Over the last two or three years the site was updated version by version until it hit 1.0.9.2 and I just could not be bothered with the next large update so stopped where I was. I have made changes and updates to that version to suit our working ways and the site is still running well. It wasn't the thought of all the changes, it was the thought of the costs and I needed to get a return on what had already been spent creating the website.

The big thing for us in the near future is our hosts stopping some of the older php versions. We have updated to php8.0 but that's where it stops as the next php upgrade requires some serious changes apparently.

This is why I am now starting to convert lots of the currently used custom code to work with the latest 1.1.0.6. Its surprising how many override files I have that obviously will require updating as well as the structure in some of the files has changed slightly. No real problem as all changes were marked at the time so I know where they are. There are some that were not marked though so that's something else

I like the whole thing behind phoenix but for me the biggest thing is its modularity. So easy to change things about and it only requires a small module updating, or another making, to totally change the site or add a working component. That modularity has to be another bonus. The PI product modules make designing a great sire really easy. The product pages are easily customisable and with the new contact us and index modules working great this should be another avenue pushed to users.

At the end of the day I am no good at marketing but there must be ways to help promote Phoenix to so many users.

As a newcomer to the Phoenix site, here is my perspective..... (I'm a shop owner, not a coder, I just dabble!)

I have been operating sites on OSC since 2010, and over the years had carried out a raft of modifications to give the look and admin functionality that I needed.

I also liked to keep the sites up-to date to the latest version (culminating in 2.3.4). Now I had a load of electronic sticky notes reminding me how to add custom functionality back into files overridden by core updates. Quite frankly the updates became a monster! with far to many "Find This - Replace with this" instructions.

My sites are still running like clockwork on OSC 2.3.4 on php 5.6 but their end draws nearer.....

Since being here on Phoenix for a few weeks, setting up a test site ready for a very scary migration, I'm very much a fan of the way modifications are carried out - ie just a few new files to drop in, maybe a file to copy to the override template - and hay presto the change is done! no more errors just because a code snippet was written in the wrong place or an extra } existed somewhere!

I think the selling points (apart from the obvious = Free!) should be: Easily modified, easily updated, future proof design.

I would like as many members as possible to have their say. I think it's important.

Have your say!
There is no right or wrong opinion.

I am open to all POV, good, bad, indifferent.

ArtcoInc wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2026 6:37 pm For the longest time, it has been promoting that one can customize Phoenix with no core changes, so that updates won't overwrite the customization. May I suggest that, while this is true, it may not be the best selling feature for Phoenix. In fact, it may be more like a "solution looking for a problem".

In a way I agree with you. Yes Phoenix has always been strongly promoted on its ability to basically make your store your own without touching core. However this does come at a cost of either your own time and technical ability or laying out some cash on a developer (there are many out there and they do not just have to come from this forum)

When a shop is up and running, the store owner's focus is on running the business. So, unless there is a good reason to 'update' the shop, he won't. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is why there are people still running osC v2.2x and 2.3x. Patch it when something breaks, and get on with business.

Totally agree as I am both a developer and a store owner and I have myself allowed stores to fall behind on updates. Maybe this is the key to having a core update feature the same as other carts have. That said the core team is small and @burt is always encourging forum members to get involved even if it is the smallest of contributions. Any contribution is worthwhile if not to core then to other users.

Updating a shop is not a trivial process, and one that most store owners won't do very often. How often do most shops get a software update? I'd venture to guess ... years between updates.

Stores can quite easily be updated these days now that @BrockleyJohn has taken over the reigns of the CE Phoenix Upgrader Utility so as long as your core has not been touched then updates are simple.

And when a store is several year old (as we have already speculated that most are), the prospect of stepping up, release by release, to 'bring it up to date' is daunting. Is it not better to just install the latest version, import the old data, and re-style it?

Yes that is an option if time and skills allow. As a business owner should you not be conducting reviews of your tools? If you have a physical store do you not get your fire extinguishers serviced or your water boiler inspected? Surely the same applys to the software that generates income?

So, since sites aren't updated frequently, the 'no core changes' framework for updating an existing site is no longer really a selling point, is it?

I believe it still is a selling point but if the store owner decides to modify the core then why should that detract from the selling point?

And, what did it take to get to the 'no core changes' framework? You have all of the additional (same but different) 'override' files. There is an entire (and growing) library of /versions/ files. All of this additional complexity to solve a problem that really doesn't exist. I thought the idea was to keep the core as lean and clean as possible.

You do have a point there, what other way would you do it? Store overrides in the database and inflate that? For the sake of modifying a few basic files to change the stores layout or even hook into them which is even easier. The only other way would be a complete admin templating system.

On top of all of this, even if I put a change (styling, or adding an add-on) into an override file, who's to say that a Phoenix update won't change the underlying database structure, and the override file no longer works? Or how two different add-ons may try to install competing override files (a different problem, unrelated to the override file issue)?

Again this comes down to keeping on top of the core updates and if something breaks i.e. a free or paid addon then the addon developer will most likely release an update as they currently do. If it is your own custom code then why should that not be your responsibility to fix?

So, what do I suggest?

1) First, drop the idea that 'no core changes' is important for future updates.

2) Instead, focus more on the 'secret sauce' that makes Phoenix so powerful ... Hooks!

Personally I would shout about both!

There have been a number of recent threads in the forum that highlight the power of hooks, and rightly so. Hooks can vastly expand the versatility, functionality, and the 'look and feel' of a shop.

But, once again, the emphasis has been placed on 'no core changes'. Instead, may I suggest something much more important to your 'average' shop owner ... "No programming necessary"!

A shop owner doesn't have to know programming (or hire a programmer). Simply upload the hooked files, configure in Admin (if needed), and they are done! No need to touch a single line of code.

In an ideal world Phoenix Cart would be a drop in and install template kind of software but it's not an ideal world and if you want an out of the box solution then there are plenty of them that will drain your bank balance

Speaking of which, once we drop the idea that 'no core changes' is important for future update, we can change the idea to: 'no core changes IF YOU DON'T WANT TO'. If a shop owner IS comfortable with 'minor' file editing, let them. Don't hammer the idea that they HAVE to deal with override files when a simple one or two line edit to a 'core file' is faster and easier. It won't be overwritten by an update that's not going to happen for several years.

This quote screams of I want my own way and if I do not get it I will throw my toys out of the pram!

(yes, I know. Open source, the shop owner can do what they want, yadda yadda yadda)

Yes that is correct although if the FREE software you are using to run your business is not good enough then either get your hands dirty or hire a developer

Anyway ... just another perspective ...

What does everyone else think?

Please do not think I am having a dig as I am not. You asked for an opinion so thats what I have given

"no core changes" and "no coding required" are, for most shopowners, two sides of the same coin.

You may be right, that "no core changes" isn't attractive as a selling point, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing overall. That philosophy is also what makes add-ons "plug 'n play". Further, if an update breaks some of your modifications, you can often have your store up and running within seconds by simply switching template to "default" (or a new one with only updated add-ons and overrides) and/or delete a few files. This gives you plenty of time to update whatever broke, with a lot more ease than you could have done with altered core files.

I installed a few add-ons on a 2.3.4 (I think). It took sooo long finding the right places in the right files to insert a little bit of code. And other add-ons, templates and other modes made it a nightmare and sometimes almost impossible. Cut to now: An add-on is installed simply by uploading a few new files. It takes seconds, and is easy. I help maintain a few Phoenix-sites in my spare time. One of them has more than 40 add-ons (half of them rather big add-ons) and no overlapping overrides. I don't think that issue is very common, though worth thinking about non the less.

Regarding updates and frequency:
You are likely right in assuming a lot of shopowners won't update unless strictly necessary. However, Phoenix implements new features that does "sweeten the deal" quite regularly. Further I think PHP-updates will push more and more people into more "maintained" software, which is easier with a core, that is untouched.

//Daniel

Questions spring to mind that I would like to hear answers, open to all readers, before I think too much about the wider discussion..

1. "No programming necessary"
Is this the same as "No coding needed".

2. "A shop owner doesn't have to know programming (or hire a programmer). Simply upload the hooked files."
Who makes those hooked files.

burt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2026 9:06 am Questions spring to mind that I would like to hear answers, open to all readers, before I think too much about the wider discussion..

1. "No programming necessary"
Is this the same as "No coding needed".

There is a subtle distinction

If the software lets you build a website entirely through a graphical interface without touching source code, you could honestly say "No coding needed."
If it also requires no understanding of variables, loops, APIs, databases, or programming logic, then "No programming necessary" is also accurate.

All coding is part of programming, but not all programming is coding.

2. "A shop owner doesn't have to know programming (or hire a programmer). Simply upload the hooked files."
Who makes those hooked files.

Just because a store owner wants a particular hook the onus is on them to either create it themselves or put their hand in their pocket. They then have the option of keeping for themselves or sharing it with the whole community.

I agree with everyone..
OSC was the first online shop I used, it was an ugly thing using a thing called 960, but it worked out of the box with Paypal.
I saw Burt Bootstrap it, and that was the future no more editing and inserting, breaking code in files (I'm a shopkeeper not programmer). I sent him $5, I feel bad about that little sum, but I got a appreciated response.
I keep a clean code shop, almost... its clean fast and to the point.
I read the code changes and imagine myself a programmer... but I'm not
As a shopkeeper I can update my shop myself, ask here really dumb questions, see other people's
customization's posted, but I wont stray too far away from the core, it has everything I need.
I used to think some plugins would be better in core, related items ,Kissit and discount codes as
I install them always (RAIWA thank-----you) but now don't mind so much as it don't break so much anymore.
I no longer fear or delay....much an update. (I always wait a little
.

burt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2026 9:06 am Questions spring to mind that I would like to hear answers, open to all readers, before I think too much about the wider discussion..

@ArtcoInc at the very least, plus any other readers. Would appreciate!

The answers to these two engineering questions allow me to move forwards into the next part of my internal flowchart.

@tessthepup answered indirectly from a business/financial POV, thank you.