Overlapping Addons

If it doesn't quite fit in the other areas, put it here...
ecartz
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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by ecartz »

burt wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 8:24 am 1. Download and Disappear - People paid, downloaded, stayed for a few weeks, then cancelled. The code they downloaded doesn't vanish when the payment stops - doesn't matter if it's monthly or yearly, that's a one-off download problem, not a billing issue.

2. Support Drain - More addons bundled in meant a significant increase in support requests. Support takes time. I know I don't have the spare time for a bigger version of the same ask.

3. Double Standard Phoenix - A number of you told us it felt like we'd built two separate software packages and that you were on the "inferior" version and how unfair it was and blah. You were right; I just don't tend to bring it up.
I don't remember any of those problems.

1. We charged up front. So if someone downloaded, cancelled, and disappeared, they still paid.
2. I don't remember more support requests. Except in that we had a forum where people paid to participate and I answered questions. I don't recall that forum as overly onerous. It's possible that heatherbell was getting support requests that I never saw.
3. People didn't say that to me. And I would point out that that's a problem whenever there are paid and unpaid modules. People who have paid modules have the right to expect better support than people who don't pay for their modules. There was no difference in how core was supported for the two groups (the same core was used for both). Except in that the people who were paying for support got more support when asking questions. The service for which they were paying.

The first two feel like you are describing the way things worked when we were on the other forums. When we had the VIP forum here, we didn't have those problems. Of course, at that time, we had a store owner helping manage the business issues, like billing support. We don't have that now.

Pro wasn't "superior" to core. Pro was simply additional modules not directly available for core. Pro had the same core. Just more features.

Part of the problem here is that the only volunteers are developers. However, for a thriving community, we need people to do things other than development tasks. Like coordinating volunteers. Or raising financing. Or making business plans. Or deleting spam from the forums. Or responding when people say that they're having trouble using the add-ons area. Or answering the easy questions in the forums.

One of the things mentioned is having an area where add-ons could be one-click purchased and installed. To do that, I need root on a cPanel server. Or root on a server with a cPanel alternative and access to the same kind of resources as available for cPanel (e.g. API documentation). I could then build that into the panel. And that's the essential problem. I can produce a technical solution to that problem. But raising financing is a business problem and no one's volunteering to do that. We even had someone volunteer to finance it, but he wanted to finance a business plan not just a technical solution. Since the business volunteer didn't want to write that business plan, it never got off the ground.

We have development donations. Those are easy to find. What we really need are financial or business donations. Or exchanges even, although the project simply isn't big enough for exchanges to finance the project. Every time anyone proposes an exchange, someone else says that it would cost too much in support. So exchanges are entirely individual. Someone pays a developer. Not someone paying the project.



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burt
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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by burt »

ecartz wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2026 2:30 pm for a thriving community, we need people to do things other than development tasks. Like coordinating volunteers. Or raising financing. Or making business plans. Or deleting spam from the forums. Or responding when people say that they're having trouble using the add-ons area. Or answering the easy questions in the forums.
When it's been left to one person to do almost all of the above (and more), it's hard. Phoenix has been battered over the last 12 months for a number of reasons, but still here and punching above weight. OK, not exactly a thriving community as has been noted in threads "it's so quiet", this thread etc, but at least trying to be that.

In my opinion, all Phoenix needs is a user mindset move from "it's free and incidental to my business" to a mindset of "a valuable integral part of my business". If absent users came back as stakeholders in its future, Phoenix might thrive.

I may be misremembering aspects, sure. What I have in mind right now is the last 12 months - it's been, at times, really really difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I won't bore the community with details.
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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by ecartz »

burt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2026 4:25 pm In my opinion, all Phoenix needs is a user mindset move from "it's free and incidental to my business" to a mindset of "a valuable integral part of my business". If absent users came back as stakeholders in its future, Phoenix might thrive.
Sure. And my point is that that won't happen through development. Those are business things. They need business solutions, not development solutions.

People volunteer left and right to do development tasks. But what's needed is for people to volunteer to do business tasks. Because that's what's missing.

In an ideal world, people would voluntarily provide resources for development. But in the actual world, we need someone to make business arguments as to why store owners should pay money for services. "It's the right thing to do" isn't that argument. It's "a valuable integral part of my business" is more like it. But you can't make that as a generic claim in the forum. Everyone who could be recruited that way is already here. It requires a human being to go into businesses and say, "Here's what you need and how we can provide it."

Every single solution that anyone says is to do more development. This is not Field of Dreams. If we build it, no one will come. What is needed is sales and marketing to sell it. That's what the Essential/Enterprise tiering is. Which if people think it's a good idea, they should come forward with an offer to sell official Enterprise/Essential bundles where they pay the project per sale. No development. Just packaging. And sales/marketing. Then take the profits and invest them into building new Essential/Enterprise features to make sales and marketing easier.

Sales first; development after.

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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by azpro »

I did not want to post - because I am posting too much - but I need to give my two cents...

Number 1 - IMHO this discussion should be moved to Team forum

Number 2 - Both of you are right - but IMHO the only way to have more involvement is to have more users... and for me it is very clear what needs to happen. And I am sorry I really have no time to help out (allthough I gave Gary some months ago allready some mock-ups and ideas) but for me it is pretty clear the attractiveness of Phoenix on-first-sight is totally ZERO (sorry if I am too blunt to make the point).

If someone is searching for an e-commerce solution (if they can even find Phoenix) and browse around to asses - what do they find? The most ugly forum I have ever seen (blunt) ... make it white and blue .. and this will change perspective massively IMHO .... The template and showcase section .. not to offend anyone - but to say the least - they are not design miracles or examples anyone will fall in love with .... Moreover - (Gary added a good page about cost) but I really miss Capabilties list ... which brings us to the elephant in the room I presume ... the fear of developers to lose income because of AI addons ..... but that fear (if there is - I presume) is wrong IMHO .. there will always be hobby-coders (me??? 😂) and they will explore the possibilities of Phoenix in conjunction with AI ... and we all know exactly because Core code of Phoenix is so profoundly good - anything is possible without touching Core (off topic - I found a way to even not use / add hooks).

The majority of business owners just want quick install and reliablity and no hussle - that's why Shopify is so popular. But here is where the paid developers come in play - I am convinced a lot of business owners are happy to pay developers for support - development etc .... But then they need to know "what" they pay for and "what" is possible. The average business-owner doe not want to hobby-code - especially not with AI - they don't know (yet?) .... So it is most important to showcase the possibilities and the expandability of Phoenix in the sence of fully loaded shops - admins etc ... I have learned I can built full ERP and full Accounting - etc etc on the solid framework of Phoenix. And I won't advocate Phoenix (Gary - Matt) should be busy with Fully Loaded - I am convinced you should not! Just maintain core - that is allready a difficult task... Thank you Gary @burt and Matt @ecartz for a briljant framework!

This is not an AI generated post - so I hope it all makes sense 🤣🤣

Regards,

A

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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by 14Steve14 »

Not trying to start an argument, and not trying to tell anyone how to do something, but I think Phoenix has reached that one place where most businesses get to after a while, and its "Where do I find the next customer". Its something all business have to go through, so its finding a way to get that next customer. A business cannot solely rely on the old customers, there has to be now blood.

The code base is great, the addons are great, the whole philosophy of easy updates and addons in great, so how do people find Phoenix. It would appear that its hard, so that needs to change somehow, but no idea what's been tried and failed and what's been tried and works.

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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by ecartz »

Slightly complicated because Phoenix has both customers, who pay for what they receive, and users, who don't. And it's somewhat easier to recruit users. Which then leads to Burt's frustration: users don't contribute to the project. Not monetarily, not code, not any of the many other services with which we could use help.

Given our structure, it's difficult to convert users into customers. Users inherently want free. It would be easier to recruit customers than to convert users.

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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by Mort_Lemur »

Just a suggestion, but when I joined this forum a very few months ago, I did not receive any sort of welcome message or acknowledgement.

Could the system not be set to send an automated email to new members "selling" what phoenix can offer them?

ie. a dedicated forum, free+ paid for professional addons, forum technical support, the opportunity to contribute by joining the co-op.

What I mean is some form of warm welcoming message, making them feel at home and that phoenix is for them and can do everything they want (within reason)

Something like:
Hi [First name],

Welcome to Phoenix Cart, and thank you for joining the forum. We’re glad you’re here.

Whether you’re setting up your first shop, moving from an older system, or looking for ways to improve an existing store, the forum is a good place to start. You can ask questions, share ideas and get help from people who use and develop Phoenix Cart.

There’s also a growing range of free and paid add-ons to help you tailor your shop to the way you work. If you’d like to take a more active part in Phoenix Cart’s future, you can find out about joining the co-op and supporting its continued development.

Have a look around, introduce yourself if you’d like, and tell us what you’re hoping to build. You don’t need to have everything worked out before you ask a question.

Don't be afraid to ask, even your questions can help develop and improve phoenix cart.

We hope you feel at home here.

The Phoenix Cart Team

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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by Dan Cole »

What I mean is some form of warm welcoming message, making them feel at home and that phoenix is for them and can do everything they want (within reason).
Agreed....that and a regular what's new email referred to previously would at least get us started on a marketing journey.

Dan

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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by burt »

Lots of ideas, TY all. Appreciate you taking the time.

I'll plug the thread into AI and try to dig out actionable ideas.
If I can do them I will, if not I'll tell ya why.
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Re: Overlapping Addons

Post by burt »

Here is what AI says is actionable ideas, ranging from "easy" upwards;

1. Welcome email — @Mort_Lemur wrote and proposed the full draft directly.

This has been actioned. New members now get the text supplied - TY and big :+1: Heather.

2. "What's new" regular email — Dan Cole added this.

This is difficult due to GDPR. Thoughts?

3. Forum visual redesign — @azpro "make it white and blue."

Done - 3 hours that I don't have ... spent on this.
There might be issues. The Addons area is a load of hard-coded stuff, so that will have to be changed in time. Neither of the creators of the Addon area are here to help, so it's difficult.

4. Improve templates/showcase section — azpro: "the template and showcase section... not design miracles."

Could you please explain more, eg URLs of this? What is the showcase section? In the forum? On the main website?

5. Capabilities list — azpro: "I really miss Capabilities list."

Could you please explain more on this?

6. Grassroots case studies externally — burt, @Mort_Lemur

Executed by Mort_Lemur at osC Forum. MASSIVE :+1: and chapeau to Heather.
Has anyone else done similar, anywhere at all ?

7. "More public-facing success stories generally" — this is genuinely from the PDF content (Mort_Lemur's AI-assisted research), not a person's original idea — worth being precise that it's attributed to the document, surfaced by Mort_Lemur's research request, not something she personally argued for independent of asking an AI.

Sort of links to #6. Do YOU have a success story to tell ?

8. Link-to-paid-alternatives norm — burt, in his "throwing it out there" post.

Up to the free addon creator if they know they are making an overlapping/alternative addon.

9. Volunteer recruitment for non-dev roles — worth re-checking this one specifically since I merged two sources. Dan Cole's actual suggestion was general ("take on some volunteers to handle or spearhead a few tasks"), not specifically "non-development roles" — that sharper framing (coordinating volunteers, financing, business plans, spam moderation, easy-question triage) is entirely ecartz's, not a joint contribution. So this one should really be split into two separate items rather than merged: @Dan Cole proposed "get volunteers" generally; @ecartz proposed the specific non-dev task breakdown independently, later, without referencing Dan's post. Attributing it as "Dan Cole, sharpened by ecartz" implies more continuity between the two than the text actually shows.

Shopowners generally don't do things that are not helping their bottom line. Reference the "Recommended Addons" thread where the uptake is poor and there we were asking for 1 minute to nominate an addon, or 10 seconds to thank an already nominated addon. Is there appetite from anyone to give hours every week to Phoenix ?

--

Here are the rest of the actionable items that I have not yet thought about. Maybe you (reader) can have a think?

10. Self-funded Essential/Enterprise — ecartz.

11. Marketplace-fee model — azpro, in his very first substantive post ("developers might consider to market and sell Loaded solutions in Phoenix addon area... Apple?").

12. One-click purchase/install area, with the cPanel/root blocker named — ecartz.

13. Managed hosting — from the PDF. Correct as sourced, not personal.

14. One-click integrations — from the PDF. Correct as sourced, not personal.
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