Overlapping Addons

[burt]

Phoenix Cart Essential
Essential add-ons
Phoenix Cart pre-configured with the most useful add-ons for running, managing and promoting a professional online store.

Phoenix Cart Enterprise
Full add-on suite
The complete Phoenix Cart package with the full collection of tools and add-ons for larger, established and high-volume businesses.

How do you think the community might react to a paid-for (yearly? monthly?) "Essential" or "Enterprise" version?

[tessthepup]

Phoenix Cart Essential
Essential add-ons
Phoenix Cart pre-configured with the most useful add-ons for running, managing and promoting a professional online store.

Phoenix Cart Enterprise
Full add-on suite
The complete Phoenix Cart package with the full collection of tools and add-ons for larger, established and high-volume businesses.

How do you think the community might react to a paid-for (yearly? monthly?) "Essential" or "Enterprise" version?

@burt
Not to be awkward but I will answer the question with a question

Are we looking to satisfy existing users who are already running their own stores or trying to attract more potential users to Phoenix Cart?

I would say the latter is more important

[burt]

Honestly, I don't know where the conversation is going in that respect. More users is, I think, the aim.

To put a twist on that, it needs more users AND fewer consumers (that's my term for those who turn up, download, install, ask a question, get help, disappear, turn up a year later to ask a question, get help, disappear, and so on). Would offering tiers of Phoenix help with that?

[tessthepup]

Honestly, I don't know where the conversation is going in that respect. More users is, I think, the aim.

To put a twist on that, it needs more users AND fewer consumers (that's my term for those who turn up, download, install, ask a question, get help, disappear, turn up a year later to ask a question, get help, disappear, and so on). Would offering tiers of Phoenix help with that?

@burt

I think offering out of the box one click solutions would help in getting more users and more consumers. Although maybe we are looking at it the wrong way and we really need a 50/50 split of both for Phoenix to go further, users to add to the code base and add-ons and consumers to use them

If Phoenix offered a solution of install, select template, select modules payment, shipping etc, set T&C's, Privacy, add products .... Launch

Yes that is a very basic idea but if that gives more users the ability to launch a store then so be it

It works for other shopping carts, times have changed maybe Phoenix needs to move forward with it.

I am playing devils advocate and it would be good to hear other users and consumers opinions

[azpro]

I am posting too much - but I need to chip in .... The essental aspect IMHO is the fact that Phoenix is Open Soucrce and "Free" .... It is upmost important to keep the small codebase .... We agree we need more users/first downloads(?) ... So you need to showcase - both "simple" core demoshop AND "fully loaded" demoshops ... with especially more professional designs and templates.... hopefully - then more Users will explore the capabilities of Phoenix ... if and when we can find more users - the question of a possible payment model arises.

And IMHO because of the unlimited possibilities of Phoenix - developers might consider to market and sell Loaded solutions in the Phoenix addon area (instead of also on their own websites - which is fine by itsself but makes it hard to find for users) ... best would be if that would all happen in a good reliable Eco-system (Apple-like?) .. in a way Phoenix can profit in one-way-or the other (payment % per downlaod? bigger userbase to capaitalize? etc - I don't know).

Synopsis - better demos needed

I hope this makes sense

[burt]

I've been dancing around this for days with the "community reaction" fishing, so let's address it properly.

We tried something like a tiered/PRO version before - it had 95-100 addons built in that the "core phoenix" did not have. It failed, and not for a lack of interest - it failed for three main reasons. This thread has more or less rediscovered all three without realising it:

1. Download and Disappear - People paid, downloaded, stayed for a few weeks, then cancelled. The code they downloaded doesn't vanish when the payment stops - doesn't matter if it's monthly or yearly, that's a one-off download problem, not a billing issue.

2. Support Drain - More addons bundled in meant a significant increase in support requests. Support takes time. I know I don't have the spare time for a bigger version of the same ask.

3. Double Standard Phoenix - A number of you told us it felt like we'd built two separate software packages and that you were on the "inferior" version and how unfair it was and blah. You were right; I just don't tend to bring it up.

What changed to try to solve #1?
Loads more paid-for addons. Once someone has paid for an addon, they have it, developer has something in return.

What changed to try to solve #2?
Going back Phoenix + Addons, reduces support time. Addons get looked after by whoever created them.

What changed to try to solve #3?
Both of the above plus we gave up on the massive PRO Phoenix download and instead went back to a lean core, plus giving access to approx 100 or so addons in a "pro downloads" gated forum area.

--

In my opinion, and I realise I may be missing an angle...a revamped-PRO / Essential / Enterprise product runs into the same issues. It's a bigger box for the exact same problem, probably built by people who are already stretched thin curating a the current much smaller download.

That bigger Box (using `box` as a generic placeholder for whatever this new tiered system comes up with, right)

Where are the addons that are going into the Box coming from ? We've been running a community curation experiment for almost two months in another thread...take a look at it, and see how few have nominated/voted. I worry that the Box gets started, then I'll be left to carry the weight alone, trying not to let users down.

Let's imagine we somehow did manage to curate 50 addons. A lot of those will be paid-for, right? How does Phoenix even approach those developers and say "your addon is great, we want it for the new Box". They *might* say "OK, but I need £100/$300/1000Euro per annum as I'll lose that much in sales", Phoenix would have to remake the addon and push into the Box - hurting the developer, who then might leave (here I'm circling back on @14Steve14 point which started this part of the conversation)...or they might say "yes, go ahead, no problem" (this has it's own issues, for example who then updates the addon, who pushes security fixes to the addon and so on - this is something that @Mort_Lemur is currently seeing in some addons that have been added to Phoenix).

I don't think we need to build anything new to fix this.

Co-op already does what I keep asking for, albeit clumsily. It's not a finished thing you buy once and disappear from - you stay in because staying in is the only way you keep getting what's being built. Leave, and it's not silent, the addons just stop coming and you don't get to see the interesting conversations - Co-op is a membership not a product. @tessthepup, you mentioned Co-op earlier in the thread and I should have latched onto that then. @azpro, what you're building sits perfectly alongside it too, since none of this touches core.

The actual gap - @Mort_Lemur point, and the issue where we don't even show up when people search for `free e-commerce software` - that's real and sort of needs solving assuming `free` is an important factor. But in my opinion, it's more of a visibility and packaging problem than a reason to build and maintain a whole new product. Let's show people what's already there properly. Let's not ask a stretched community to build and support a second, larger version of something when we can't currently even nominate two addons a month for to be uprated to "recommended".

What I've been working towards over the past year or so is two-fold;

1. Awareness that Core and Addons stand shoulder to shoulder, equally important. Addons are how you make Phoenix into `YOUR Phoenix`.
2. Make a system where everyone who wants more than Core, can have exactly that. IF they just stop being a consumer. That system is three-ply; Free Addons + Paid Addons + Co-op.

It's on me that this ethos hasn't been communicated very well this past 12 months :-\

--

Sorry for the run-around on this - I probably should have just said as much on Friday. I am open to anyone dissecting this post and quoting parts at me with a rebuttal. Go for it! As I'd like to learn your thoughts.

Sorry for the long post.

[Mort_Lemur]

@burt Hi Gary,

Not an easy one at all, I didn't just search for FREE I repeated the search for Best ecommerce software and also for Best ecommerce software for small businesses - They all lacked any mention of phoenix.

I then asked what it would take for phoenix to feature in these results. Attached in a pdf is the response.

Maybe the Co-Op section need renaming? as it does not instantly jump out what it is - sounds a bit like a Marxist set up Maybe something like Phoenix Pro Hub would suit better?

phoenix.zip

Zip Content

To feature alongside platforms like Shopify or WooCommerce in recommendations for
small companies, Phoenix Cart would need to be evaluated based on how well it solves
the modern needs of a typical small business owner: speed to market, minimal technical
friction, and out-of-the-box marketing capabilities.

While Phoenix Cart excels at data ownership and zero platform fees, mainstream lists
prioritize platforms that cater to non-technical users.

What it would take for Phoenix Cart to feature:

Lower Technical Barriers for Beginners

• Current State: It is self-hosted. While it features simple one-click setups through installers
  like Softaculous, users still have to manage their own hosting accounts, modern PHP
  compatibility, and SQL databases.
• What's Needed: To compete with Shopify's hands-off hosting, Phoenix Cart would need a
  widely known "managed cloud" equivalent (similar to how WordPress has managed hosts
  like WP Engine) that handles server maintenance, SSL certificates, and security updates
  seamlessly for the merchant.

A Modern App & Integration Ecosystem

• Current State: It utilizes a modular "hooks" system and has an active Community Addon
  library.
• What's Needed: Modern small businesses rely heavily on instant, one-click integrations
  with third-party tools like accounting software, TikTok Shop, Meta Ads, and automated
  inventory sync. Deepening these specific pre-built integrations would bridge the gap with
  larger commercial ecosystems.

Broader Market Awareness and Case Studies

• Current State: It is heavily praised by developers and independent shop owners who
  migrated away from older legacy systems like osCommerce.
• What's Needed: More public-facing success stories of small companies scaling directly on
  Phoenix Cart without hiring a developer. Mainstream tech reviewers look for platform
  longevity, user reviews on third-party forums, and active market share data before adding
  software to top-tier "Best Of" lists.

Where Phoenix Cart already wins (The "Alternative" Choice)

If a small company has a bit of technical comfort or wants an alternative to mainstream
SaaS, Phoenix Cart presents a strong argument against the listed platforms:

• No Rent or Surcharges: Unlike Shopify, which charges transaction fees if you don't use
  their processor, Phoenix Cart has zero platform fees and lower transactional costs.
• True Data Sovereignty: You have total control and full ownership over your customer
  data, server, and code.
• Lean Performance: It features a very lightweight codebase built on Bootstrap, enabling
  standard fast-loading and responsive layouts out of the box.

Personally I think you need to keep the Free version but run it alongside the loaded pro version where the keys are handed over to the purchaser.

On the burden of updating addons to work with changes, that is not that big a task really, in two months, with the help of AI I have produced probably around 40 addons that are rewrites of OSC mods that I have stored, some of which date to 2012 / 2013. Agreed there were many iterations for some of them. Plus they would only need looking at if either Phoenix was updated or if the php version was changed.


Last Edited by Burt: add content of .zip in a post as most won't download the .zip!

[Dan Cole]

Gary, don't be disheartened. I think you are on the right path with the co-op and recommended add-ons direction, templates etc. It will take awhile to get all those things humming along but I think you'll get there in due course.

I say, stay the course and perhaps see if you can take on some volunteers to handle or spearhead a few of the tasks involved so you're not spread as thin as you are.

Dan

[burt]

A nice cup of coffee and an interesting PDF, living the high life I am
Thanks for doing that research, I appreciate your time.

--

I've read the PDF properly now (twice). My reading is that its two strategies each wanting to be top dog.

Half of it wants managed hosting, one-click integrations, zero-developer case studies. That's chasing the "I want it easy" crowd, and is straying into Shopify-Lite territory. The other half says Phoenix strength is zero fees, data sovereignty, staying lean/mean - because we're the alternative to mainstream SaaS, not a hands-off box.

It also leans fairly heavily on WooCommerce as a comparison, which is odd since WooCommerce is self-hosted too - so maybe hosting isn't the real barrier? Throwing that out there for discussion.

Not blaming you or the AI for this, I just don't think anyone caught that it's two different strategies stitched into one document. AI does this well, it likes sitting on the fence

On the visibility point, this is well appreciated by me as I've been struggling doing it on my own. I've been trying outreach in places other than this site/forum. It's hard. I don't have enough time to do a good job. I more or less gave up. Happy users could equally do some small form of that? Post on the likes of Reddit, post on forums, send an email to reviewers, even post here in the Lounge or in the Site Feedback area? I know that's unlikely, but I can still hope it happens.

--

To be contrary for a moment, I know you won't mind...here is (part of) your very first post at this Forum;

The original OSC forum is almost completely dead now, but gemini pointed me this way as a suggestion to migrate for php

Gemini pointed you here once the osC forum died. So I wonder which gets us in front of more people like you - the "best of" style comparison lists, or whatever it is that makes an AI recommend Phoenix for an osC migration?

[burt]

The part I wanted to give a whole post to is above, now I will answer a smaller (but still big enough that it needs response) ...please bear in mind that I completely understand you're wanting the best for Phoenix !

On the burden of updating addons to work with changes, that is not that big a task really, in two months, with the help of AI I have produced probably around 40 addons that are rewrites of OSC mods that I have stored, some of which date to 2012 / 2013. Agreed there were many iterations for some of them. Plus they would only need looking at if either Phoenix was updated or if the php version was changed.

What you've done is take Phoenix and made it `YOUR Phoenix`.
Which is Phoenix ethos, in action. Beautiful.

So, `YOUR Phoenix` has 40 or so addons - how many users do you need to support? Just you, right?

Now increase that by an order of magnitude.

`Phoenix Box` (remember Box is just a term for PRO/Essential/Whatever) with 40 addons - how many users to support? 10? 100? 1000?

Making addons is easy(ish) depending on scale.
Updating addons is easier as they're already made.

Supporting Phoenix with a load of addons ... loads of users...is another thing entirely.